The Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast
The Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast is a deep dive into what 3D printing and Additive Manufacturing mean for prosthetics and orthotics. We’re Brent and Joris both passionate about 3D printing and Additive Manufacturing. We’re on a journey together to explore the digitization of prostheses and orthoses together. Join us! Have a question, suggestion or guest for us? Reach out. Or have a listen to the podcast here. The Prosthetic and Orthotic field is experiencing a revolution where manufacturing is being digitized. 3D scanning, CAD software, machine learning, automation software, apps, the internet, new materials and Additive Manufacturing are all impactful in and of themselves. These developments are now, in concert, collectively reshaping orthotics and prosthetics right now. We want to be on the cutting edge of these developments and understand them as they happen. We’ve decided to do a podcast to learn, understand and explore the revolution in prosthetics and orthotics.
The Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast
Where Do I Start With 3D Printing for O & P with Joris and Brent
We trade trade-show gloss for real-world tactics, then lay out a three-step plan to bring 3D printing into O&P without risking patient care or cash flow. From Bambu-level starters to automated check sockets, we show how to start lean, learn fast, and scale what works.
• Formnext’s shift from machines to applications
• Materialise Bricks for modular workflows and costing
• Multi-material metal, gradient parts, and smarter tooling
• Affordable LPBF and the desktop print farm surge
• Start with a low-cost printer and print clinic tools
• Outsource complex adjustable sockets to free capacity
• Automate transtibial check sockets for speed and margin
• Scanner choices from budget to pro with trade-offs
• A three-tier roadmap to adopt and scale digital O&P
Special Thanks to Advanced 3D for sponsoring this episode.
Welcome to season 12 of the Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast. This is where we connect with experts in the field, patients who use these devices, physical therapists, and the vendors who help bring it all together. Our mission remains the same: to share stories, tips, and insights that help improve patient outcomes. Tune in and join the conversation. We're glad you're here and hope it's the highlight of your day. Hey Yoris, I'm doing well. You know, I'm a little jealous, but I I I love your uh articles um that you do for 3dprint.com. You know, I I do feel like like my disdain for Frankfurt, you know, comes from uh what you write. I mean, you describe it so well. And I'm like the only reason why I would go there is to go to Form Next. And uh so but but the other thing, you know, I I love your perspective on, hey, these are some new things here. This is a recycled of old things. So I really wanted to just kind of get your uh insight onto what you saw uh as new stuff technology in general. Because what we have a lot of listeners that it's not necessarily for O and P, right? But it's like, okay, so where is this technology going? And I know that there was a lot of metal stuff that came out, so I'd love to touch on that. But just a general sense, the excitement, the attitude. Um it appears that there were some in, you know, some independent innovator type of things, people bootstrapping some of this technology. I think it's you know from what I saw, some very interesting thing. But the the, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but the overall tone of the conference was hey, this is how you get stuff done in the a commercial sense. We are showing you some new tech, but it's it's really focusing on how do we go from this like, hey, I can print tchotchkis to hey, I can print 10,000 of something and actually make some money on it.
SPEAKER_00:I think I think that's really a succinct way of expressing it. I mean, for the NISH, Forum Next is the the the biggest trade show in added to manufacturing 3D printing. It's in Frankfurt every year, has been for about 10 years. And it it's the only the unique thing is there's also a rapid, there's also every once in a while, we're every two years or so, we're part of INPS as well. Uh, and there's other regional shows. The difference of Forum Next is that's the only place where you see everybody from China and Japan, but also guys coming from New Zealand and the States. So and and it's the only show where like Amug, for example, see the guys on the concrete floor, the guys are actually running the machines. And totally if you want to buy a machine, Amug is a great place to go. Added manufacturing manufacturing strategies, the the show I um co-host uh and do with 3Dprint.com is more of the, you know, it's all the business people talking about the strategy. Uh and and uh foreign makes you see all those people, you know? Uh so that's a big difference. And uh definitely if you I don't know if you're like an OMP person, if you're an OMP person, you live near Frankfurt, you should totally go. Uh, because you can get free tickets um and uh you can also see everything, right? All the parts in one like a four big holes. So definitely, and definitely if you're starting a 3D printing related business, I would 100% uh urge you to to go at one point because it's different in our industry than in the I don't know, IT or something. You can actually learn an awful lot from handling parts and looking at parts, and there's an awful lot of applications. I think that's the one thing you caught up, uh you you managed to see while not even attending the event, uh, which is about like uh the application stuff. So we used to be a very machine-centric show. This is the VX 4000, it does cubic inches per minute or whatever, you know? And now it's uh then people used applications, so they actually have part illustrating what can be done with the machine kind of as a demo thing. And now it's much more like this is Alstom, and they make this for the front of the train. And this is what they did to this part to make it work and make a fire retardant because it's the front of a train, right? Um, so that's the kind of stuff. So we're moving, it's much more serious. The on the downside, there were less stands than last year. Um uh, so they had to like cut like uh, you know, basically like large swathes of the floor were unoccupied on each either side. Never nice. But everybody was and and the there were less tire kickers, I guess. People with stars in their eyes didn't know what they were doing. But it was much more serious business stuff. So I completely agree with you. There is much more like, you know, the projects were bigger and the machines were, well, maybe it's not less revolutionary, but they were actually suited to purpose. Like ALS made an Onyx machine, which actually is like all the upgrades you would want if you're running the old M400, their DMS machine. So rather than do something really crazy with 12 lasers, also people like that, they're making the machine like, okay, in line with whatever you wanted uh in the next uh kind of level of time. Um there was uh usually the joke at Form Next is that yeah, the only thing that isn't is there's there's never any innovation, but somehow we do get ahead. And this year there was there was a lot of innovation, like um there was a lot of really exciting stuff. Um, so one of the things, for example, is materialize bricks. Materialized is a big software company, and they have bricks, which is kind of like I'm gonna like they're gonna hate me for this, but it's like grasshopper for additive. So you can use Magix, which is the main tool for planning bills and metal printing, definitely a lot of other uh LPBF as well. Through Matic, which is a research tool, uh, and a bunch of other materialized tools. You can use them in a kind of declarative way, or not in a kind of declarative way. You can use little blocks to kind of make your very own workflows. So you could make a scanned apart workflow for OMP, for example. Uh, you could make uh a workflow to price parts for medical for OMP, but then price them differently when Judy is on her maternity leave or when uh uh uh when Roel uh uh you know uh goes on vacation or something like that. You know, so she may you can make really very specific workflows for your company. And that to me is a very exciting tool from a business intelligence perspective as well, to let people create costing tools for them, you know? Uh so I think that's really very exciting. Uh and that uh but that's a very inside baseball, I think. But it's still very exciting. And I don't know if they're gonna use this to make affordable tools. I hope they use it to make affordable, really specific tools for people, you know? If you're a two-person shop, then a cost running out of a thing is very different than if you're a 20-person shop, you know? And if you hate doing something, you could even you could even cost it a certain way to make something more expensive because you have to do it or whatever, you know? So there's a lot of stuff there that we don't do that we could and that couldn't happen more intelligently. So that's my favorite thing. Uh the other thing uh that was really amazing is a company called Scheffler Special Machinery, and they um they have a recoder, uh a multiple drum recoder. So uh LPBF, laser powder by diffusion is a process there. You take powder, usually one uniform powder, and you take a laser over that powder and it hardens it. Uh that being like TI, titanium or other TI64, usually other materials, um that part has to be attached to the build volume or the build platform and will probably kind of rip itself apart. So you have to generate supports to keep that part in place, and you can print that. Um, this is very difficult if you're just trying to make one prototype, it's probably not going to work. But if you want to make millions of teeth, right, or millions of suppressors, or millions of uh aerospace brackets or whatever, that's the technology to do it in metal. It's costly, but it's very detailed, very precise. And there's a lot of pre-post-processing steps as well. Now, what Scheffler's done is uh add three drums to this that mix material. Basically, one's kind of like a support, I guess. Um, and two materials you can mix in. So this allows you to have, for example, gradient parts, right? Where you're changing the performance of the part at every single location, voxel, if you will, every single location, or part or region even, or layer. Um, and you can just change properties uh in ways that we really don't assume. Uh that we haven't really thought before. So there's a company called Amnovus, which, for example, what they were doing is they're using one, they're using uh uh an implant made of two different uh so this is an orthopedic implant, made of two different titaniums. So what that means is you could use one titanium for strength and the other one for um uh basically kind of like being safer, I guess, in the other one. And you can make thinner implants, for example. You can make that implant earlier, you can do that implant earlier. What you could also do, um, uh, for example, is what they showcased at the show, is that you could use one implant with a softer titanium screws or harder, harder implant with softer screws or whatever way to make you make it easier to remove that implant. Uh if you're doing a mold, you can make a mold with copper and steel and stuff to have a really hard wearing material, stellite, I don't know, and then and then copper to make uh more conductive underneath. There's lots of crazy, crazy stuff we haven't thought of doing with this, but this is really a very uh, and it's also not easy to do this, but this is like a really big frontier for us. And they're really moving ahead on this. Uh and they're also making it working on uh magnesium uh as well, which is like this crazy we lasers and magnesium don't, well, I'm about to say don't mix, but perhaps it's better say mix very well. Um so um finally got that one.
SPEAKER_02:I was a little slow on the uptake, but uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:No, I wouldn't want to work there, but I think it's great that they're doing it for others. But uh but anyway, so that's great because like you're talking about more um you know implants that might uh actually have a really interesting role in the body or skeletal system and stuff. So that's also really exciting, and that was just one company, right? So there's a lot of that going on where people are just innovating um outright sensu. Uh there's this company called uh another innovation, which I thought uh is called Almatus, I think, where basically people made an investment casting machine. So investment casting is a process going on for like, I don't know, 5,000 years. And uh it's a multi-step, super multi-step process where making a mold and you're investing it and you're breaking in all stuff. And they basically made a machine to do this, a desktop machine for doing this. And it's just like a completely insane kind of uh setup, you know? And and we don't know if it'll work, but but that that could be a really different way of looking at making metal um parts. Another thing, Axtra 3D, it's an SLA vendor, Axtra, what they have is they have really good layer definition, really good corners and sharp corners, if you will. So what they showcased uh is just combining that with an injection molding machine. Now that's really obvious. A lot of people have been doing this, but they now offer a kind of bench top injection molder with their SLA or vap polymerization printer for you to be able to make injection molds in-house. So they're just going a little bit further, you know. Whereas, like, you know, form labs, of course, was there showcasing some new resin, some new tougher materials. That kind of approach, that form labs driven, kind of like everything is perfect when it works together, is kind of being ate by other people and learn some more, more, more functional type products. Uh meanwhile, another big thing on the show was was affordable metal printers. So these these LPBF machines we were talking before could be a million bucks or something. Um, now one click metal for a couple of years has been working on machines around 100, 180k. And they show in a much more refined printer. But what's also happening is that there's other, there's about 10 other vendors also making cheap LPBF printers. Some of them, exact metal,'s been doing this for a while. But other ones are new. And there's a Swiss company, there's a Basque one, there's a whole bunch of them. Uh, and they're all making kind of like really easy kind of semi-carpet floor um LPBF printers. And LPBF is a very complicated process. Uh, it's very difficult to master. There's probably a lot of steps afterwards. Um, but making that more affordable really means that apart from the biggest companies on earth using metal 3D printing, now all of a sudden, well, you know, a relatively small machine shop could consider it. And we know we've had a bunch of people on the podcast that use like these LPBF parts for fingers and for for complicated devices and for molding and all this stuff. So this is kind of relevant uh for for for OMP as well. And it becomes like now it's like 180K and then maybe 240, 250, you have the the equipment you need, or most of the equipment you need. And that's you know, that's that's already kind of a much more, it's still, you know, it's gonna be a big uh big investment for a lot of people. A lot of people aren't gonna be able to do it, but still much more affordable than I think um uh we had before, you know. So that was a big deal as well. The other big deal is the march of bamboo. Bamboo and proceed had the big busy stands, but also Snapmaker had a busy stand, and Creality of a lot of people uh crowding around there looking at their latest innovations. And we're really seeing that percolate through the industry where you know, before before it was like Destal Printers are a toy, and there's still a lot of people who say that, you know, that's a toy for making trinkets, you know. And what we're trying to do is tell them, no, no, this is they're coming for you. These guys are hyper aggressive, they're making a uh a really amazing machine and and is getting better all the time. Uh so the the the so these machines are are not only marching into your living room, but also mining more into uh indirect parts or parts like you know uh jigs and fixtures and stuff. Uh but also on top of that, they'll be making, you know, they're making more end use parts as well. Uh and I think you know, lower cost, higher speed, they're really reliable. Um, so this is uh something in brand on market, it's gonna, you know, things are gonna collide essentially uh uh at one point. Um those are the things I saw, and I there's a ton of stuff. It's really difficult to kind of distill out six things from from uh from from it's a week, right? It's essentially it's a week. It starts on the Monday, there's a bunch of sh uh kind of uh meetings with um you know the install base or training or that kind of thing, and then it goes up until Friday. So that that's kind of like um, you know, it's it's it's it's it's kind of very difficult to kind of like you know see it all in one go, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean I the the the metal stuff is always interesting to me, and I and I love um like I I think they even showed One Click Metal does a lot of stuff with our our friends from Point Designs uh and Chris Baschuk and uh some pretty cool stuff there. We don't have time to get into it, uh, but we do need to devote a um an episode of the podcast. So some codes came out for Medicare for Point Designs, and uh I'm I'm I'm not trying to derail this whole conversation, but it will it it ended up not being super favorable. So it's just you know government at its finest um and not understanding uh innovation and that sort of thing. So I gotta dig into that a little bit more uh because that is just like this kind of breaking news, I guess. And there were a couple other codes that came out with some other innovative products that just did not turn out the way that it should have, and uh it's just kind of weird. So we'll have to dive into that. I'd love to get your uh feedback on that. But totally, dude.
SPEAKER_00:That would that would be real, I'd be really excited to look at it. Oh, another thing I do want to point out that was really, really cool. Uh, is there's always been tooling for moles has always been like a big deal. And I mentioned the extra thing, but now we're seeing a ton more tooling examples in polymer tooling, like tooling made on like a forum labs, uh, but also lots of lots of tooling and met in metal for uh injection molding, relatively low-run injection molding, packaging, medical packaging, all this kind of stuff uh that was like uh uh that yeah, it was really very um very high quality, high precision type of stuff where they're getting better cycle times from 3D printed molds. And then also, you know, now with all the bit of chaos and stuff, people are looking much more towards making these molds uh better. I saw a styrofoam mold tool, which I'd never seen before. I'm not entirely sure if that'll work, but hey, at least somebody's thinking about it. Uh uh, we saw mold tools for latex, we saw mold tools for uh two component stuff, um uh mold tools for uh polyurethane and and for all sorts of relevant type of uh things. So that's something for the all the vendors out there. I think making a kind of like if you need a mold for, especially for like a polymer mold kind of thing, um uh uh or tooling or insert or something like that, that's actually maybe a lot more affordable than you think to get that first, you know, you know, I mean print the first hundred maybe, but the first 500 to 5,000 are now uh much more accessible now because of a lot of people doing work on that. So I think that was that was very encouraging as well.
SPEAKER_02:Did you see anything? So I'm just trying to think of like the big uh the big companies. So you've got uh form labs. Uh I think they released some new materials, but not really any new machines, right?
SPEAKER_00:And then uh no, not that I know they they they did a new uh they did a new tough resins.
unknown:Oh, that's right.
SPEAKER_00:And I think they have a new uh um washing curing thing for the big machine.
SPEAKER_02:Because man, SLA stuff is nasty. Like I I just uh you know, in some ways I'm like not interested, but there are some parts that are pretty amazing. And in the extra stuff, I don't did you see the stuff that I designed there, the the stuff that was in the blue um material the for the prosthetic flexible inners. Did you see that at the extra booth? You know, those are all from Charlotte, so I uh I've got to know them pretty well. Um and so we're we're trying to play with a few things to see if there's anything that makes sense for well that's cool, dude.
SPEAKER_00:I I really like them, and I think I think it's really cool what they're doing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And then uh HP released an FDM printer or white label FDM printer from what is it? The 3D Jones. Gents, yeah. Um Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um uh I don't know.
SPEAKER_02:I mean so I kinda get it, but uh yeah, it's a whole nother a whole nother beast.
SPEAKER_00:Um no, I think I think somehow it makes sense you're signed to the people that you're already signed to and you're already building out those relationships. Um I think a couple years ago, if they would have, like, for example, bought Ultimaker or something, like taken that to a next level, I think that would have been really advantageous. I think now I'm not sure. And if and if I would have been able to work with someone, uh I would have worked with Mini Factory, frankly. Uh I think that's a much better machine if you're looking at the high uh the high temperature uh geo excusion machines. I think that's a the superior solution uh that works better. Uh 3Gs was an okay machine, but it never they never really found out how to play well with others. So they never really kind of, you know, how they tell you in kindergarten and put them on their report card always. That ends up being really important in in life for a lot of people. And and they just were never very good at that. And that and that really meant that they suffered until the point where they didn't have the revenue to maintain that as a top-tier system. It'd be interesting to see if they could put money in it and if they can grow it, something like that, but still I do think, you know, like most industry, they're kind of bamboo roadkill more than um, you know, more than uh anything else. And then the the the the USP there is that there it's a high temperature machine, so it can do peak.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Ultimate some of those high value stuff, so it's not like yeah. And the the price point actually, I mean, didn't seem to be like uh for not to be uh like HP ish, you know, like a hundred thousand dollar price point, okay. I mean, yes, it's an FDM, but it's not it's not stupid.
SPEAKER_00:But you can get a minifactory for that. I'd always get if you were like Airbus, I'd be like get a minifactory, right? Yeah, and if you were like not Airbus, I'd be like get a hundred bamboo labs.
SPEAKER_02:Uh-huh. Sure.
SPEAKER_00:No? Um, you know, I think one of the things is really interesting. So I read a lot of articles, right? And uh uh uh and sometimes people miss them, and then they're like, oh uh and then I'm like, no, no, guys, this is important. And then I wrote this article at Wiglitz. I don't know if you saw this.
SPEAKER_03:Uh-uh.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, okay, okay. So I saw this article. So the weirdest thing, so you meet tons of people like this. So you're talking from breakfast until like way into the night every day, you know, the same probably the OMP shows, same thing. And people just sometimes are like, because you're a journalist, they always kind of like reference stuff, like, oh, I read that, that was good or something. And this year, the one thing that everyone was talking about was this wigless article. And I'm like, look, I wrote 10,000 words on binder jet, please. Uh like uh please. I spent like weeks on that. Um, but but uh, you know, in this case, they were talking about Wiglist. So Wiglist is a company and they're uh they're in the States, and they have right now they should have 3,100 bamboo printers, and they're making little articulated toys with like with color mixing. So the multiple color little articulated toys. And that was a wake-up for some reason we knew this already, right? So so the problem is we've been saying, we've been hinting at this for several years that there's like, you know, be saying, hey, there's in Shenzhen, there's there's people using hundreds of printers to make housings for consumer electronics and all this kind of stuff, you know. Um, so we've been hinting at this, but none of these guys, none of the guys wanted to go public with it. They're just like, no, I'm good, thanks. You know, and and all these guys are like, yeah, they do B2B and they're known, like in Shenzhen, they're they're they're known and that's it, you know? They don't care. Uh uh, so now all of a sudden these guys are posting stuff on on Instagram. That was a unique thing. There's other bigger uh print forums, by the way. I mean, I think this is important to know, but I can't talk about them because I can't um reference them in any concrete way. But still, 3100 printers was uh it's 2700, and they're gonna get 500 new ones uh one of these days. And and that that's still a huge wake-up call for people. And you still had people probing, like, yeah, but it's just for toys. And I'm like, no, no, they're coming for you, dude. They're coming for all of us. But anyway, so so so that that shows you that the you know, you could manufacture the toys sell for I think the 290 or 245. That's a plus the wholesale, they are wholesalers. So there's the the the the toy store margins on top of that, maybe even some distributor margin as well. Uh so that's and they're they're very they're the tiny articulated toys we all would print for people we know, maybe these little axolotels and stuff. And these guys are just making money off of it, which is the craziest thing in the world. Uh, but that that that just illustrates as well that worlds colliding, these industrial stead industrial people kind of getting in contact with these desktop, these really ambitious desktop companies.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, and I think that that's a good segue into what I really want to talk about. Like I think it's good to have the the form uh the form next um update. Yeah. But I get a lot of questions. So, you know, every time at the end of the year, people have money to spend if they're small businesses. Okay. And they want to do something new for 2026. Even though I understand it's only, you know, a month and a half away, and the difference between December 31st and January 1st is right. But there's something about starting a new year, having goals and all that stuff. Um, so what I'd love to dive in today, because these are questions that I get all the time, is I'm not doing any 3D printing right now. How do I start? And so I don't know how you want to work it out. We'll just work it out. Uh like um let's start with um a lot of people think that it's just the printer, right? Well, you've you've got to send something to the printer. So maybe let's just chat a little bit about um some things to look at um scanning wise and software-wise, and then kind of work through the actual process of finally getting a 3D print on the other side.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02:I it okay, my opinion, I'd never start with a scanner.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's the most difficult part of the whole thing. And and and I know you're a huge Einstein, uh Ein Scan fanboy, and they seem to work really well, but I just think that's just an it's an investment and it's an investment in time, but it's insane. Would you start with a scanner though?
SPEAKER_02:Well, so uh and and this is just the clinician in me. Uh-huh. So for prosthetics and orthotics, uh the uh we just say shape acquisition or cast, whatever is the foundation of of what you do. And I so I think you have to you have to start with that in mind um is what how are you going to get the shape into the computer? And it's come a long way. Um, you know, you have the cell phone scanners, you have uh uh uh I saw Creality kind of get into the game, you've got the uh structure sensors that attach to iPads, and then you have the more expensive Einstar um sort of thing. So uh I think it's is an important thing to talk about because I think without a scanner, it's hard to do all the rest of the stuff. Sure, you can outsource that, but then you're also outsourcing your margin. And I think that is really what is key. If you can uh to me, the design is the most important part. So, and that's where you can get the most margin because that's the specialty. So, like if you send me a part ready to print, that price is going to be different than if I need to do work and make it print. And so um, and but that's the difference, is to me, the design and scanning aspect is where the margin is, and that's where people should first start. So I think maybe we have a discussion on that's interesting.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it it makes sense. It makes sense, but to me it's like I and I would have agreed with you a couple years ago, I think. Uh now the difference is that I think it would be really cool to start with training if you could find the appropriate training. And the next question is, is there appropriate training? And there's no so in the ideal world, I think actually you would want to start with a training just to see, you know, well whether's work, if there was like a cheap training somewhere. Um but the thing is, then I would say, you know what? Uh start trying to use uh use an outsource scanning, use an outsource design, use an outsource 3D printing service to just deliver these parts and see what's possible, and then buy like a cheap 3D printer to just understand the process. And only after it buy, so that's the first thing I buy is training, the second thing I buy is like a uh a cheap printer.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:And then I probably would say, look, for most of the people, like then working to the scanning, still outsource your design, because that's hard, man. What you do is on the design stuff, that's actually hard.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That actually takes you thousands of hours, right? So and then I would be like, I'd still then outsource my printing, and I think first about outsourcing printing before I even think about outsourcing the the scan DFAM portion.
SPEAKER_02:Now that's interesting, it's an interesting take, um, for sure, because and I don't disagree with you. So um let's let's just chat real quick on the so somehow you've got you're you're going to spend money somehow on shape capture. So whether it's a cast, whether you take a cast and you don't want to have anything to scan, you're still going to have to send that uh cast somewhere. You're gonna have to send it UPS, D DHL, FedEx. Um but I wouldn't even start with that, right?
SPEAKER_00:I would start with like jigs and fixtures.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, so you're saying like almost like just tooling uh like how do you make your surroundings better?
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. That's what I'm doing in my house. That's what everybody does, dude. So start and then so once you have the printer, then uh try to print just whatever stuff your kids, whatever. And then and then later on gravitate into doing a little bit of design stuff, uh, a little bit of uh doing that, and then I would learn through doing like tools. Like, what is a tool to first okay, organize your tools, right? Do some poca yoga stuff where you have a special tray for one procedure with all of the tools you need for that procedure. Right? Um, yeah. So you know in advance already before the patient's coming, if you have everything in that one tray. Do I have my tape? Do I have my, you know? Uh then I would do like, you know, do I have a fixture to put this thing to make it easier? And I would go that way. I wouldn't make the devices for the patient straight off the bat. I would just go like the stuff around the office to make my life easier, you know. Okay. Well, uh, you know, uh a beer can holder while I do my uh circular sole.
SPEAKER_02:The after five, the beer can holder with a timer on it so you know when it's after five.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And I'd start with that because that that that is establishes value, there's no risk. And you can do it with a desktop system quite easily. Okay. And and also if you don't design a fixture correctly, then I don't know, your scissors don't fit, you know, or they fall to the floor. And you end up using, but these things like tolerances are important, and then the next time you want to make a hinge, then you can't make a hinge, and you find somebody else's hinge, you try to steal their hinge, and then that doesn't work. And then you know, and then you find about clearances, and you find out that the clearance is different and different material. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:All right. So I think I think it's a nice, playful way to learn, and like you're not thinking if Mrs. Jones is gonna fall down the stairs immediately.
SPEAKER_02:I actually love that. So I think that should be the official position of the prosthetics and orthotics podcast. Awesome. Is buy a printer first, you don't have to know anything, and then create your environment in a better way using the technology, and at that point you have no risk and you are making yourself more efficient. Uh, and let's say, you know, your tooling saves five minutes out of the day. This is this is a lot of value there.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_02:A lot of value, and it or it made you more organized, or you don't lose things, or you label something for a patient in a different way. Okay. It's great. This is how I feel about that actually.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, think about it. Think about it. This doesn't have to be definitive. We can change this like uh, you know, the next time we can think about, but think about the logic of just having trays, right? You have a Pokioca type of tray where you have one of oh, I'm preparing for Mr. Jones, and Mr. Jones has to have thing X. And for thing X, I have to collect all these things, or I can get my assistant to do it, or I have to do it, I'll do it when I'm on the phone. You know, that's another thing, this parallel processing thing we're all doing now. I'll do it while I'm on the phone. And then and then I have all the things. I don't have to like make her wait while I try to find the type, right? Which is what if I would, I would be the worst processor in the world. I would always be like, oh my god, wait a minute. I have to get the water for the cast. Oops, uh, I'd be horrible. But but then also having a second trade to just put the stuff you've used in it so you know exactly where you are and how far you go. You know, that kind of stuff is really simple. If you make the train, it kind of doesn't work, you know. That's okay, you know. Uh uh and you can make it better. And I think I think it's easier, but I think it's really interesting that I think when we we did a similar question like this a couple years ago, and we both of us are like, yeah, don't buy a machine right away, it sucks. Yeah. So so what I think is interesting about this approach is that that you could iteratively make your own workplace better. And I yeah, like you said, yeah, if you save a couple of minutes a day, that's that's that's gonna really add up to real value to you. And the other thing is I think it's interesting that five years or so when we were doing this, uh, whenever we started doing this thing, um, this podcast thing, um, we would we were actually actively telling people not to buy machines. And now the machines have gotten so cheap and so good that it's okay like to tell people to buy machines. Whereas previously we were just saying like too many people buy machines too early and it just doesn't work and it's just a waste of money. And now it's like if we're looking at the cheaper end of things, well, I actually think you should probably buy a machine quite early in the whole cycle. What about you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I mean, now that you've changed my mind uh on that, which uh I love, and and I don't, you know, so I think here is the real question. Let's just get down to brass tacks on this, is well, what machine are you gonna buy? And do you go the cheapest? Do you go the uh the China one? Do you go the kind of open source Czech one uh that has a US manufacturing plant? Um are you concerned about data? Are we overconcerned about data with these Chinese machines? I don't know. Um that that sort of thing. So uh I'll I'll start on my my my opinion. I think you buy the cheapest bamboo labs you can buy, which is either an A1 A1 Mini or A1. Both are gonna be sub 400, and on a Black Friday, I'm sure you can probably get one that's sub 200. And you just start. I mean, I rarely I mean, I have an A1 Mini actually at my feet right now, and I rarely have had a failed print. And if I have a failure print, a failed print, it's usually my fault. I designed something that's not right, or I'm pushing the machine a little bit harder than what I should. But I'll tell you, like, even in Guatemala, I've had two A1 minis that I leave down there in the jungle of Guatemala, and they've been down there two years, and they start up every single time and print perfectly every single time. I actually didn't have a failed print this last trip. I mean, that's pretty impressive. And I'm pretty TPU in the jungle of Guatemala. Um so uh that would be my suggestion, and it's just because they just work. Now do I like the bruises? Yes, but I would say that uh the well, and I uh the the the the ecosystem of bamboo sets you up to be successful right off the bat and without any knowledge, and so my thing is uh so and I would say Bruce is getting there, but you can always move to that machine because they've got a lot of cool things coming down the pike, but uh I want something that I don't have to fiddle with. And I, you know, I've fiddled with printers since 2014 essentially, and if I never have to fiddle with another printer again, uh that would be great. And uh other than the vortex, like I I do enjoy that, but now it's getting to the point where I'm not having to fiddle with that one that we're building right now. So um that that is my opinion. You buy the cheapest bamboo printer and you start printing stuff.
SPEAKER_00:No, I think I think uh I'm inclined to agree with that. I think I think again, but this is for people who are listening to this, maybe new to this. This is kind of novel because it used to be like if you have a kid, you'd buy this printer, if you're a business, you'd buy that one. If you're a branch business that wants TPU, you buy another one, right? And uh uh even with the bamboos in the beginning, I was like, it's great for everything except for type TPU for OMP, is is kind of a bit of a limiting thing. But I think, yeah, you're right. I think I think for most people, I would just say get a bamboo, A1, A1 Mini. Uh, you know, if you don't like it, if it doesn't work for you, give it to your kid. They'll have fun with it.
SPEAKER_01:Or give it to a maker space, whatever.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. It'll be fine.
SPEAKER_02:And I love your point of don't print prosthetic stuff, print stuff that's gonna help you and then learn learn the process a little bit. I alright.
SPEAKER_00:And and then but no, but then then there's uh the okay. Or if you're gonna be if you if your end goal is to do something like weigh or develop your own printer, or um uh you do something with multiple material, you know what I mean? If if your end goal goes outside the current paradigm, then I would get a preset. Okay, like because you could fiddle more with it, it could be your build platform for your new silicone printer, or you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So and it'll actually let you control it more. Also, if you want a print form, if you're thinking, oh, I want a hundred of these, then I also would start with a preset because you'll actually understand the the mechanics of the system better.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, and they're just more open on that stuff, I would say.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and and you could you could change it to take, I don't know what latex or I don't know. You could do crazy stuff if you want to put like uh uh Viscotech nozzle on it and and and print like a liner material, you know? Or use it as a most so the the the much more experimental program and Prusa, the MKs are uh you know MKCs are still really good printers as well. So that's the same, but yeah, it's it's it's uh the A1s are just simpler, yeah, yeah. And no matter what your level is, uh, and even if you want to be a casual user later on, I think I think that's a good thing. And yeah, how much did you get them for? Like they're like I mean, I think it was with the discounts, it's like 200 bucks or whatever.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's that's a price where before you could get a printer, then you were just like, but I wouldn't like for example, the difference between a couple of years ago is you get a printer, but you wouldn't leave the house. Oh, and I have a print. Uh I need to wait for it to finish the cooler.
SPEAKER_02:I gotta make sure my house doesn't burn down, you know, that sort of thing. And uh uh now it is not the position of uh the prosthetics and orthotics podcast that you just leave your printers going. I mean, so your mileage may vary, but um anyway, definitely should not hack them or something, but now they're much more reliable.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, just the idea, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Um okay. Yeah, so totally we've we've kind of landed on the first thing. This is how you get started, and I love that. So um, so the next part is okay, so you are getting better and better. Um, I think you to, in my opinion, you find the one thing that's kind of a bottleneck in your facility, and you outsource the design and print of that. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_00:Sure, sure. That's super good. That's super good by this far. I like that a lot.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so in my opinion, so for instance, and I know you're a big fan of the adjustable sockets, well, those are highly technical sockets to make digitally. You are not learning how to do that um your first go. The cool thing about outsourcing that aspect is not only are you gonna get your reimbursement better, but you're gonna free up your technician's time. And I think that's a super important um thing to do. So you're not only you're making you're making money, more money, outsourcing, which is fantastic.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. Totally, totally agree.
SPEAKER_02:I think that's a really good thing. So outsource that everything. So send your mold, send the test socket, whatever that fits, and and go from there. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know if there's reliable partners for that, but that just seemed to be the right way to get it started. I mean, if it works for you, why invest the capital? You know what I mean? I I think there's a real benefit in buying your first scanner, maybe, but definitely your first cheap printer for a couple hundred bucks to get used to this technology to actually understand what it is, to actually understand how you can make it, because you could use it in a really crazy way as well, right? That no one thought of. You know, if going forward you understand that once you understand the technology, once you understand it's possible on the desktop and with buying machines, and then and if you can just outsource it and it works, well, then it works. Great, spend your money elsewhere.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Let me ask you this. This actually came up recently, and I and I'm pretty sure this guy probably does not listen to the podcast. He's very heavily opinionated. And if he does, fantastic. He'll remember the story. I'll anonymize it. Anyway, they just want to go all in on 3D printing. And I think that's the wrong thing. Like, I don't think I think 3D printing, especially in ONP, is a journey. You cannot go out and spend your way to um convert your whole office immediately. I I just I would you agree, disagree with that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I don't agree with you. I mean I think I think the best examples, let's say you were doing this in 2000, was it 23? Then he would ask us what printer to buy. And let's say you would have you would have spotted the desktop print farm opportunity. Right. Uh, like these wigglitch dudes we're talking about. Then it would have been a big risk to take on bamboo, and you would have been vindicated, unless, of course, you needed to make TPU, which is which does not work very well on the other machines, on the older bamboo machines, right? Uh so you would have been stuck with with a with a lot of machines that are making TPU far slower and far less quality than if you were doing it on a different system. And in fact, I still get I think better quality TPU stuff off of uh the ProSer research machines, you know? So it's like before you know what you're doing, you need to know the more material and and and and and and what design file and where you're getting it and and how you're printing it. So it's it's the wrong, it's kind of like you'd you buy a car before knowing what you know what you're gonna do with it. Oh, I bought a Ferrari, uh we have six kids. Uh right. You know, it's a similar, similar kind of thing. Uh you know, you have to figure out what you're doing. So first, so I would always like, yeah, spend as little money as possible and try and figure out first what problem you're solving for other people and and what you want to start making. And then I mean it wouldn't make sense to say, I want to be big in cars or I want to be big in music. What music? You know, are you gonna produce rap songs and also uh classical music? You know what I mean? You need to know where you're going in order to learn the skills, meet the people, and develop the organization to tackle that problem. And even in in what we see, for example, in additive, there's huge differences between product businesses and service businesses, first off. Uh there's huge differences between people who are just doing services, as in they take in all sorts of files, and contract manufacturers are doing the same part over and over again. And there's huge differences between people that have their own, that make their own product than you through 3D printing, and those that work for others. Uh, and there's huge differences in types of machines that make sense for all those people. Um so, you know, if you're looking at like doing a service, then low capex is super important for you. But if you're looking at like doing your own product, then uh maybe you would like to then make less margin, uh, but have more, uh fewer failed bills and fewer post-processing time because it usually less less of your people, and then you make a better product in the end or something like that. There's just a lot of different investment decisions uh that could be affected by the product. And if you're involved in something that's a tool or something that's a uh you know, an end-use uh medical device, there's gonna be a lot of like qualities are gonna make a your quality, cost of quality is gonna be very, very different for you. And and it also means also like what kind of personality are you? If you're you know, it takes a particular type of personality to want to be a contract manufacturer and manufacturer, that person with a manufacturing mindset day in down. And I think for a lot of people, it's like kind of the thing where like everybody kind of wants to be a beer brewer until you find out the beer brewing is really cleaning and a really process-driven kind of organization. You're not just putting like, oh, let's put some extra coriander in here. You know, no, that's not it. That's not it at all. It's like one day of the whole beer brewing experience. Like the other 10,000 days are just cleaning. Right. You know, it's like, let's figure out what you're doing, you know? Good point.
SPEAKER_02:All right. So let's say we've established that you buy a printer, you do this stuff for your office, you outsource a high value product that's very complex to free up your time and makes you more money. My next step would be like, okay, what is something that I do a lot of? And I know I could bring costs down. And so my mind automatically goes to test sockets, specifically transtibular below-the-knee check sockets. It makes up probably 70 to 80 percent of all the amputations that we fit are these um the below-the-knee amputees. And so if you're able to do that in-house, there's a lot of benefits to do that, and it doesn't all come down to saving time and money, even though you will. So, for instance, a a test socket uh that is made out of PG is gonna cost you about five dollars in material cost once you have your printer uh to print that. Currently, if you outsource that, you're talking about$175, probably. So you you now have a little bit, and and your reimbursement from an insurance company, let's just call it$250 to$300, something like that, uh is uh so your spread, your or your profitability, uh it moves the needle pretty significantly to bring that in-house. Now you mentioned uh it's hard to modify digitally and that sort of thing. And this is where I would say over the last month, my opinion has definitely changed on this idea of modification specifically for transtubule sockets. So I'm gonna just gonna give you a for instance.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because it used to be that was finicky and you needed to be skilled, and it was it was annoying as hell. And it's we're talking to people that are spending like what, it's 45 minutes on that or something like that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, or like if you do it by hand, you're in plaster and you got rasps and sand screen and all the drywall tools and all that stuff, and you're getting all messy and all that stuff. That's uh to me, that is um uh nonsense. And the other thing that's very interesting is when you talk to clinicians, and these are experienced clinicians, these are not just out of school, and you say, Okay, uh walk me through what you do to a model, and then you hear the same thing. I reduce three percent, I uh modify this in and this in. And it's like, okay, so if you're taking a cast and you're reducing three percent every time, does it ever occur to you why am I reducing three percent every time? How do I reduce nothing? How do I get to zero percent? Which uh which leads me to and we've talked to Johan Weigel from um uh Stuttgart with the airfit system. I don't know if you saw the stuff that I did in Guatemala. I fit five patients with the air fit system, and these patients are super difficult to fit. And literally, I put the cast on, I pumped up to a specific uh it wasn't even like 0.8 bar uh on a paddleboard pump that is manual. You know, I don't even know, you know, is it correct? Probably it's somewhere in that at range. I did not have to touch a thing. Literally, I we poured those down, uh smoothed it up just just to get some of the rough uh edges off, and that is it. So when you talk about how do you uh actually save time, and I know this will seem like heresy to a lot of people, here is here is what I would say. You buy an Airfit, you use it, you you find a scanner that can scan the inside of that Airfit cast, you automate the socket design so you don't even have to know how to make sockets and you print it in-house.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, why not outsource it? Why not outsource like all the difficult stuff?
SPEAKER_02:Well, what is there to that's difficult? It's all automated. It's like so all you have to do is scan it. You know where the the um uh landmarks are, and so you just have to put in an alignment and the the software generates everything for you.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. And what would you use for the software?
SPEAKER_02:So your magic or what um we haven't had him on yet, and um I want to have him on. His name's Jack Buchanan. He has a very, and I know you love mesh mixer, but there are a lot of downsides to mesh mixer.
SPEAKER_00:No, but he's no downsides to mixer.
SPEAKER_02:He has a mesh mixer-like program, and he probably will hate that I say it, said it that way, but let's just call it it's a very simple modification software that includes um measurements, so circumferences, parameters, that sort of thing, and alignment tools. So you you know where your kneecap is, right? And you know where the end of the leg is. So with those two things, it automatically aligns it, and then you just push a button that says create my socket. Beautiful. And and it's expensive, or no. I mean, he's doing a per pit per click deal on it, and I don't and he's still working out the pricing model, but it works.
SPEAKER_00:Like I would be I I like that you've changed on this. I what I what I really like is that it's really contrasts to the interests of advanced through D what you've just told people to do. So this is what you're you're sometimes like you're erratically honest, and I love that, but I love that about you, but but now you're like, yeah, you should really take up and listen if somebody tells you to do something that'll like potentially negatively impact their own business.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. Well, here's the beauty though. So I um I don't know if you saw the the the thing that I did with the guy that he came in on Sunday. Um he got here around five. I cast him with the airfit system, we modified right away, uh, and then we put it into the printer that night. And um uh um and then the next morning at noon, and I had an hour and a half drive to get there, we're fitting him. So literally in less than 24 hours, we're fitting him with an adjustable socket.
SPEAKER_00:And why is that is that you only did that there because this guy had to drive, you know, I had to travel 14 hours to get home, right?
SPEAKER_02:Coming in from Texas, and we had a study that we were doing um with the university. So um I don't it you know, it was it stressful? Yes. I mean, there's a lot of work uh to get that. But the cool thing is is that the printer printed overnight. We harvest the parts in the morning and we fit the device and then we went and did the study. I like harvest. I've never thought of it as like a harvest. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna look at my printer every morning and look at the harvest like I have an apple tree in my living room.
SPEAKER_02:So all that to say is um it went so well, and he's a very complex limb. The adding the adjustability, which is what we bring to the table, people are gonna change in volume throughout the day. It doesn't matter how mature their limb is or whatever, having that adjustability is is key. And so um, but what's cool is that if you do that and do your check socket, make sure everything fits, uh, and then you can outsource the actual definitive socket that needs to be done. So you've you've lowered your exposure, financial exposure, uh, and time, and uh, and then you are now outsourcing your uh your device. And so to me, and that covers like 80% of your practice for for prosthetics. And now you don't have to learn how to modify in like a uh geomagic free form. You don't have to, you you are getting you're in the digital space without much work. And so I I want to touch on um scanners real quick for that. So I know that there's a lot, so you've got the structure scanners, uh, let's just I'm gonna lump them all together. Structure, uh, and the cell phone scanner and the scanning app and that sort of thing. They're all like sub a thousand dollars. And then uh if uh in the same breadth as that, there's the Einstar, uh, which is part of the uh Shining 3D portfolio. That's a sub a thousand dollars. Uh the software is free that goes with it, so it's a one-time deal. It's an it's an okay scanner. I think it works fine and for what we do. I don't know that it really gets the inside of these casts, but if you play your cards right, maybe you scan the outside and reduce the thickness of the cast and you get in the ballpark. I think that's a fine way to do it. It's not the way that I would prefer to do it, but if you're really strapped for cash, that's the way I would go. Then the next level up is um the Ein Scan um H2. It's around$5,000. Uh, it gets you a lot of things. And you know, when I think about all the stuff that you were talking about, prototyping and potentially reverse engineering or just quickly making something, um, that would allow you to say scan, you know, part of a workbench or a drawer or something and then make something very quickly from that. So I think that's that's interesting, but it would provide uh Would you if it's my first scanner, would you say get the cheap one? So it it to me, it all depends on what you want to do. So, like to me, is I only want to buy one scanner that will do everything. And that scanner, and I want to spend less than that's five grand. I want to spend less than$10,000. This is this is the keystone of how I'm gonna build my practice. And you and and you gotta remember that for O and P, it's been you know, uh not too long ago, 10 years ago, it was sixty thousand dollars for a very basic laser scanner. So when we're talking about ten thousand dollars in a scanner that's going to age well and age with your practice well and can do everything, the the one that sticks out to me is the ArtTech uh EVA. Wow. Okay. And it's a great scanner.
SPEAKER_00:It's like saying like that, you should, yeah, you can go to it's like we're jumping up in price here to like above most Toyotas.
SPEAKER_02:But here's the thing is you know, people let's just say 10 years ago, they were spending$60,000 for a scanner and$150,000 for a carver. And we're not even talking 3D printer. And so you're$215,000 in and you're still having to use phone blanks as consumables. The software is horrible. Software is you know$20,000 a year, all this stuff. And so now we've taken all that down and said, hey, buy an ArtTech Eva that's light years ahead of everything else. Use automation software that may cost you$20 a pop. And you're you're you're in a in a uh like an amp bamboo H2S that has 14 inches of Z or a Prusa Core XY. Um so the H2S is twelve hundred dollars and the core XY is$3,000. So what we're saying is that for under$15,000, you can actually start doing stuff that's meaningful for your clinic. And I think that's a heck of a deal.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. I okay, so a little nuance. I think I think we mean the same thing. If you have lots and lots of, if you're trying to make an app or a path or you have a 20 people in cars driving around everywhere, the comb method, right, with the phone and stuff and the structure method are are I think far superior because you're not gonna have to buy a ton of these devices, right? If you have a lot of clinics or you're going places, you know, and just I just RTEC in uh in one lab keeping there, great. RTEC logging it, logging it around, looking uh lugging around at people's houses gets me a bit nervous, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:Uh that's one thing. I completely agree with your like there's very little outside of scanning land that I would buy apart from the Ein scan, the whatever medium I that's what I would I didn't really know which which was the good medium kind of shining scanner or an ArcTech Eva, which is amazing. Um, but it's a lot of money, it's like 40k, right? It was like last time I checked, it was like 40k the thing, right?
SPEAKER_02:W which one? The RTEC. The RTEC Leo, yeah, it's like 35. Oh, Jesus.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. That's a lot of money, dude. That's I think I think but I think couldn't you just try the the the Ein Scan first and then so it's kind of like what you were talking about with the printer, though.
SPEAKER_02:Do you want to kind of figure it out as you go, or do you just want it to work? And to me, I just want it to work. Like I don't want to I don't want to finesse a subcar tool uh when I could spend a little bit more money and get it to work.
SPEAKER_00:I was terrified of dropping it though.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah. Are you are you uh I've dropped it and uh yeah, it costs money. Yeah, I've cracked the case.
SPEAKER_00:Oh wow, oh that's horrible, dude. Oh wow, but I think I think well another thing, another okay, I would I'm still thinking about this. I don't know, but if we were trying to do differently, we were trying to have a uh I'm gonna scan and I'm gonna outsource the file handling and the printing, right? Yep, then I would definitely get an RTEC. You know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Then I would 100% agree. And if you're doing this thing with uh with the if we're if we're light on the the if you want to make this as painless as possible, that is the way to go for it.
SPEAKER_03:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:Um and I think the technology's there. And a couple years ago you would have had the RTEC, but you wouldn't have nearly had the you still have to get Geomagic though, right? Um I think.
SPEAKER_02:Well, no, I think you can use basic software to get going and then yeah, outsource. So my thing is let the clinicians do the clinical things and let the design do the designing things. And and then if you want to bring it all in-house, make it part of your journey. Make it a one-year plan. Hey, I'll bring Geomagic in uh uh you know a little bit later on.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:So um let's let's uh okay. So we've gone through a lot. Let's just kind of land the plane. Yeah, the I and I and I really see it as three tiers. Yeah. One is how do you get started? And that is buy an A1 mini and do stuff for your office. I think we are there. Two is um find something that's in your office that's a bottleneck that you can make some money in that you're not currently making. So I say adjustable sockets and uh uh outsource that. And then and then three is, and you're still playing you're still playing with your printer, right? Uh so your printer does stuff, and uh you're learning some things along the way. And then number three is do check sockets and automate the process. Use the tools to minimize uh the modifications needed, something like the AirFit. And so to do that, you need a scanner and the the budget is sub a thousand, you've got the Ein Star, sub a thousand and some fiddling, let's just say that. Sub a thousand, uh the Einstar, um, the uh we like comb scan and uh some other iPhone you know scanners out there, the structure sensor, uh that's all sub a thousand. You jump up to sub 5000 and you're in the um H2 realm. Actually, Shining 3D released a wireless one that's like 5,500. Oh, yeah. And I forget what the I wanted to look at that and I I missed it. But it is supposedly people like it. And so if you're wanting wireless, that might be a good option. And then for me, I would make the investment in a scanner that's gonna you know take me to the next level, do some things that like scanning the inside of CAS. And ArtTech just does some great things with the technology. Um but uh full transparency, you do have to pay for their. Software. And here's the thing about paying for software is it gets better. So they actually now have a budget to continue making their software better, where like an Ein Scan or something that gives their software for free, you're kind of stuck until somebody's like, uh, you know what, we should probably upgrade that a little bit. So that's the sub uh uh 10,000. And um we've had Bo Helmrick on, so if you want to ArtTech Eva, reach out to Bo on that from Digitized Designs. Then and then you buy the uh printer to do check sockets for twelve hundred dollars. I think we can agree, Bamboo H2C. If you want a little bit more volume and in a different ecosystem, or you're gonna run multiple, um, the Prusa Core XY uh is a great platform for that. And you're what$2,500, maybe almost$3,000.
SPEAKER_00:And I have a Core 1L at home, it's really nice.
SPEAKER_02:And you're you're in, you're in, you're you're like really doing it. And then um the software is called ONP CloudCad, um by Jack Buchanan. We're gonna get him on and talk about that. So that would be super interesting, dude. So what do you think? I mean, is that a pretty good um and and and then you springboard from there? Uh you then you then you can invest in more software and that sort of thing. But I think we both agree that this is a journey and you just don't flip on the switch and it magically happens.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, totally, totally. You have to be open learning, open investing in time. And I think I'm actually really surprised how much we did this a couple years ago, and I'm actually really surprised how much our opinions have changed.
SPEAKER_02:It has.
SPEAKER_00:It's really and that means people are things are getting better because I never would have also on the software front, I would have always said, like, you're investing in a scanner and then you're stuck with all the cleaning up stuff, it's it's still fun. Uh, but that also has gotten better. So I'm actually like this actually does mean we're making progress in some crazy way. OMP industry and the digitization of the LMP industry continues as becoming easier and easier. So that's a a really uh heartwarming good news kind of thing, I think.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. Well, uh, thanks for uh changing my mind today. And man, I my my my brain just hurts thinking about it right now, actually. I mean, we've uh we've I I mean this conversation is actually uh in a in a good way kind of stretched like hey, what do I actually believe? Where do we go? And we had no idea this is the the path that we were gonna take today, but I think we've landed on a pretty good path.
SPEAKER_00:All right, all right. Hey, thanks, Brent, for being here today.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, this was great.
SPEAKER_00:And thank you for listening to another episode of the Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast. Have a great day.
