The Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast
The Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast is a deep dive into what 3D printing and Additive Manufacturing mean for prosthetics and orthotics. We’re Brent and Joris both passionate about 3D printing and Additive Manufacturing. We’re on a journey together to explore the digitization of prostheses and orthoses together. Join us! Have a question, suggestion or guest for us? Reach out. Or have a listen to the podcast here. The Prosthetic and Orthotic field is experiencing a revolution where manufacturing is being digitized. 3D scanning, CAD software, machine learning, automation software, apps, the internet, new materials and Additive Manufacturing are all impactful in and of themselves. These developments are now, in concert, collectively reshaping orthotics and prosthetics right now. We want to be on the cutting edge of these developments and understand them as they happen. We’ve decided to do a podcast to learn, understand and explore the revolution in prosthetics and orthotics.
The Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast
3D Innovation, Business Evolution with Eleftherios Samiotis
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Discover the transformative power of 3D printing in the world of prosthetics and orthotics as we sit down with Eleftherios Samiotis, an innovator from Greece, whose passion for the field was sparked during high school summers. From his educational journey at the University of Salford to launching OrthoLife, Eleftherios reveals the challenges of navigating diverse healthcare landscapes and fierce market competition. Learn how his commitment to innovation is elevating the standards of orthopedic devices in Greece, Cyprus, and potentially beyond.
Experience the cutting-edge advancements in technology as Eleftherios shares his transition from traditional methods to revolutionary 3D printing, especially for children with cerebral palsy. Discover the incredible benefits of custom, breathable, and functional orthopedic solutions that are reshaping patient care. With insights into material advancements and ambitious expansion plans, Eleftherios offers a glimpse into the future of orthopedics and the opportunities that lie in international markets.
Explore the strategic investment decisions behind adopting 3D printing technology and the evolving landscape of additive manufacturing. Understand the importance of partnerships, ethical practices, and the role of accelerator programs in guiding businesses towards sustainable growth. As Eleftherios highlights the intersection of trust, innovation, and real-world applications, this episode provides invaluable insights for anyone interested in the dynamic convergence of healthcare technology and entrepreneurship.
Then join Joris and I talking about Formnext 2024.
Special thanks to Advanced 3D for making this episode possible.
Global Insights on Prosthetics Industry
Speaker 1Welcome to Season 10 of the Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast. This is where we chat with experts in the field, patients who use these devices, physical therapists and the vendors who make it all happen. Our goal To share stories, tips and insights that ultimately help our patients get the best possible outcomes. Tune in and join the conversation. We are thrilled you are here and hope it is the highlight of your day. All right, I want to give you a little bit of a heads up on this episode. So the first part of this episode is our guest, and then the second part of this episode is where Joris breaks down Formnext 2024 and his visit to Germany. I hope you stay for the whole episode. It's going to be a great one. Let's dive in.
Speaker 2Hi everyone, my name is Joris Piels and this is another episode of the Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast with Brent Wright. How are you doing, brent?
Speaker 1Hey, joris, I'm doing well, man, I know we're going to get to the Formnext thing after our guest, so I'm really excited to hear more about that, some of the drama, some of the new things coming down the pike and you said it was a good time, so as far as like a really great show, so I'm really looking forward to hear about that. Well, so we had to make sure that three different time zones were on. It was me in Eastern Standard Time, you in Spain, which actually just changed, which we figured out, and then our guest is in Greece, and so that's pretty neat and one of the things that I love about the Prosthetics and Orthotics podcast. It really is becoming global and more and more people are learning from us. But I wouldn't have expected it, and we're up to 106 countries now, so we just recently added another. So this is the first time we've had anybody from Greece and this guest it's a, I would say does a lot of stuff in 3D printing.
Speaker 1If you follow him on LinkedIn, you know foot orthoses, scoliosis stuff, some prosthetic stuff. He seems to really dig a lot of the FDM stuff and definitely looking towards the powder stuff. His name is Eleftherios Samiotis. I think I almost got it. Yeah, I think that was a very good attempt. I think, yeah it yeah. So I'm really excited to have him that was a very good attempt, I think.
Speaker 3Yeah, it's good, well done.
Speaker 1And he said if I couldn't pronounce that we could call him Lefty.
Speaker 2No, we're not Eleftherios. Eleftherios, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3Yeah, but whatever works better for you and whatever makes the conversation easier.
Speaker 2Perfect. How did you get started in this prosthetics and orthotics world?
Speaker 3Basically, actually.
Speaker 3Thank you very much for the invite.
Speaker 3Actually, when I was in the high school during the summertime, always I used to work somewhere during the summer months and I had the chance to work the last two summers, when I was 16 and 17, for prosthetics and orthotics company, basically to help in the workshop to do a couple of things, and it was a great opportunity for me to discover this nice world of artificial limbs, of orthotics, of all these rehabilitation devices that these people were doing people were doing so.
Speaker 3I really liked the whole process of starting by taking measurements and making somebody that has mobility issues to put him back on his feet and back to normal activities. So I decided to send an application to the University of Salford in the UK and to study this job and to become a CPO, a prosthetic orthotist, and this is how everything started and I started my university in 2000 and I finished my university in 2004. Then I came back in Greece. I worked for about five years, including one year that we have to do the army services here in Greece, which is compulsory own step to open my wings and to open OrthoLife and to start my journey as having my own clinic, and now I'm running two clinics. One clinic is based in Athens and I also now have a clinic in Cyprus, in Nicosia.
Speaker 2Okay, and so what we're also interested in, of course, here is what is the healthcare system like in Greece? How does it work? Is it like a public system, private system? Is it a mix? What kind of system do you have to deal with? Because that really shapes a lot of practices worldwide, right yeah?
Speaker 3Regarding Greece, it's actually, I would say, 60, let's say so, 40%. I would say it's public, meaning that almost 40% of an orthopedic device gets covered from the national insurance system and the rest is out of pocket. So when something is out of pocket means that somebody has to pay from himself, or, if there is a private insurance or somehow another way, this authority can pay for him. So I would say 40% is public and 60%, I would say, is private. In Cyprus that I'm also doing business now, the full services regarding prosthetic orthotics are fully covered by the government 100%.
Speaker 2Okay, that's interesting to me. And was it difficult in the beginning to get started, to get recognition, to get that business kind of started in Athens?
Speaker 3It was a bit difficult because when I started I was 28 years old, so of course I had never been in a business before, and that was one difficult thing anyway. Of course I had never been in a business before, and that was one difficult thing anyway. And also how to understand all the competition in my field. Also to understand how the investment system works in Greece, how the whole thing works, what was the mentality of the doctors, of the patients expectations, how is the financial field in the business. So it was a bit difficult and that's why I started quite early. It was basically me, my partner we only had one employee this time. It was early days that we had to discover, I would say, more ourselves and how able we could be to become CPOs that will run a business, because it's very much different being a CPO working for a hospital, for a rehab center or for a company and very different to work as a CPO on your own business.
Speaker 1Yeah, so what is the actual landscape of Greece? Can you give us some population numbers? How much? I mean? Would you say there's competition, like there are other private companies doing this. Are there people in the government that do this? How does that work?
Speaker 3Yeah, the population in Greece is almost 11 million people and this business is actually running only on the private sector, so there is no public services that can serve these requests. Now, regarding competition yes, of course there is competition, there is competition. However, I must say that five maximum six companies doing, you know, 90% of the orthopedic devices in the whole of Greece. Also, bear in mind that Athens, that is the capital of Greece, has a population of around 5 million people. So, if you reckon that Greece is 11 million population, five out of them live in Athens. Yeah, this is it. Cyprus, if you want me also to tell you about Cyprus, cyprus is about 1 million people. Yeah, and it's also a private sector. It's basically two or three companies in Cyprus.
Speaker 2What has led you to be successful? What are the skills or the things you've done to really become successful so far?
Speaker 3I would say a combination of being innovative, be a bit upfront, to offer services that is not just a copy-paste from what the others do, something that makes you unique and very different regarding to the other ones. You unique and very different regarding to the other ones and, of course, the service and the product and the quality of work you offer reflects the price you charge and, of course, the know-how and the knowledge, the business, how deep you know what you're doing and how well you can pass all this information to the customer, to the patient, to the doctor, to the physiotherapist, because you may be very skillful, may know a lot of things, but maybe you don't have the way to pass all this information to this kind of people. So, yeah, I would say these are the main things that I'm chasing. I'm looking and I'm always trying to be better and better every day.
Speaker 1What would you say is? I mean, you've definitely leaned into the additive manufacturing side of things, but you didn't start out that way, right?
Speaker 3Yeah, great, I started the conventional way, the way I used to work. But, as I said, when I got up to a point that I understood that I was just making good things but I was not offering something special, something more unique, something more advanced compared to the others, I said to myself that I have to open my eyes and to look what is coming, what things I have to do to become different and what sort of materials, ways of manufacturing new products, new devices I have to offer in order to compete with my competitors that were leading the market at this point of time. And that's why I did actually the market at this point of time, and that's why I did actually, and not only just to sell, but also to offer a better product to the customers, also to reduce my lab time, to be better.
Speaker 1One thing that's interesting that I think that, like in Greece and even more like the European countries and that sort of thing not US-based prosthetists and orthotists do you have a little bit of opportunity to work in the seating and mobility side of things, and so I know I've seen some of that on your website. Can you speak a little bit to that?
Orthopedic Innovations With 3D Printing
Speaker 3Yeah, actually the special seating devices. In Greece it's a part of business where the prosthetists and orthotists are involved. You know, in some other countries the special sitting departments different things. I think in the USA it's actually a completely different department. In Greece we are the ones that were involved in these kinds of devices, in these kinds of situations.
Speaker 3So I was doing seeds for a couple of years before starting using 3D printing technology, using expandable foam, taking plastic casts and using conventional waste. So when I started, I was treating a lot of children with cerebral palsy. They had scoliosis issues and deformities, so I had requests like this to make special seats. I was also doing, for example, a corset for them. So, yes, I was doing seats, but using expandable foam. But now I have discovered that 3D printing really, really helps me to produce seats that are more breathable, more functional. I can differentiate the hardness zones. I can use CAD tools to make things that, at the end of the day, will offer a seat that will be more functionable, breathable and more practical washable. I don't know. I mean, the advantage of 3D printing and special seating for me was a big step in my business.
Speaker 2Yeah, and do you think the 3D printing? What were the difficulties in adopting it for you? Did it really take a long time for you to master it? Did you rely on other people? Did you all learn it all yourself?
Speaker 3in the beginning I relied to other people. I started also making my own experiments. Then I said it was just about time to to to hire a somebody that knows how to design and how to cut better than me, someone that knows how to use also CAD softwares. I would say it was a bit of a mix, a bit of my personal attempts and the combination of people that I started relying, to the point to hire an employee that will be by my side and we could combine the experience and the know-how I have till now with the knowledge of a car designer that can digitalize, let's say, my ideas and what I want to achieve on an orthopedic device.
Speaker 2And right now, what printers do you use and what kind of software? What's your workflow?
Speaker 3a little bit on the printing yeah, basically we are equipped with four printers regarding FDM technology. Three of them come from Denmark. It's from a company called Created Real. They have designed three different printers for three different kind of orthopedic devices. One is an insole maker makes insoles. The other one is a corset maker that we use to make corsets for scoliosis, kyphosis, and the other one is a seat maker that we're making all these big seats for our patients and we're also using this printer to make the 3D printed wheelchair cushions that we make. We're also having an ultimaker 3D printer that we're. We're also having an Ultimaker 3D printer that we're making some part for upper limb prosthetics, some components and some stuff for our high-definition silicone that we make. You know the inner parts and we also have one small resin printer that we're basically using it for now to print some scans, as most when we receive an order from another country, let's say. And now I'm in the process of getting one more resin 3D printer to start making more orthopedic devices.
Speaker 2You know you can now print things right. You design things. You can actually spend time printing them, or printing them better, or you could do a service and then create a custom thing for someone. I mean, you're looking at yourself and your own business. Is there one of those three areas you're focusing on more than the other ones, or do you think it's all part of the same opportunity?
Speaker 3I would say it's all the, it's all part of the same thing. I mean, we spend time on the design, we spend time to to print the device, time on the post-processing time to fit the core set, to fit the seat, the insole really on the device and on the case and about it, like on things like like orthotics, right, we've seen a lot of people adopt, uh, that technology.
Speaker 2Is that something that that you really think that we need new materials, for that, you need new processes, or are you very happy with the solutions that you have at the moment?
Speaker 3Actually, one thing that I discovered when I went in Formex last week was that the development, the improvement of materials really brings new ideas on how to make orthopedic devices and which technologies to use. So, yes, the materials, the ways of manufacturing really made me think that I can produce and manufacture more devices. And what I'm doing now and I will do, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2And also, if you're looking at this, I mean you expanded from Greece to Cyprus. Do you think that's more like something you're going to keep doing to expand internationally, or is this one opportunity where you're like, ok, we have to do this, this is close by we can make this other office happen?
Speaker 3Yeah, actually no. I mean, most of the Cyprus part is Greek, so it was very easy for us, language-wise and location-wise, to make this step. But it was actually a step for me, not only because it was very easy, for all these reasons, to make a business in Cyprus, but because it was quite close to the Middle East and to the Gulf countries, as I'm manufacturing orthopedic devices for these countries. So, yes, I would say that I see this step as a movement to grow my ortho life group maybe to other countries. I don't know if it will be OrthoLife me as a known, it will be OrthoLife France-Size or whatever, but for sure I keep my eyes open, my opportunities open. I think that during the end of January I will be at Adab Health to see friends, to see people, to see opportunities, all right.
Speaker 2Eleftherios, thank you so much for being with us today.
Speaker 3I thank you for the invitation. It was a great pleasure to chat and to share what I can express, you know, from and that's a wrap with Eleftherios.
Speaker 1Stay tuned, let's hop in the conversation with Joris and I about Form Next 2024.
Speaker 2Okay, that's cool. Yeah, it was a really great show. Compared to a couple of years ago, it was more serious Like there's not a lot of tire kickers about. It's somebody who's like literally like I have a AOS P110 and I'm looking for a new powder for it, or I'm looking for, you know, to have a large scale FM system and I'm looking for CF pellets or whatever. It was a really focused show A lot of visitors, a lot of good energy and not a lot of like tire kickers, not a lot of like really lofty concept stuff.
Speaker 2Much more like I am selling this thing. Do you need this thing? You know how can I help you. What are your problems, right? What are you dealing with? You know? You know how can I help you. What are your problems, right? What are you dealing with? You know what would you like to optimize? You know what's the design software. Would you like to learn to work faster? Or you know what workflow software is out there that can help you minimize? You know, have less fit, fewer failed builds, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2And especially because, like CapEx is a bit lower generally in the worldwide, people are a bit more uh, you know, kind of cautious I guess. Um, there's a lot of worry, like chinese companies are really worried, sick about tariffs, like every single chinese company exec I talked to was just like what do you know about tariffs? I mean, what I don't know. I don't think anybody could predict what's gonna come down the pike there, actually right, and also the uncertainty about not knowing right that it could be one day it could be 50% tariff from every left-handed thing out of China and then it cannot happen. So that kind of uncertainty is really kind of really, you know, very nerve-wracking for Chinese firms in particular. But I think a lot of people like I think I look at something like Mosaic Manufacturing or something they never would have expected to have a large tariff barrier importing stuff in the United States. So the question is like, like you know, would it affect that? So that was the kind of the geopolitical stuff was much more prevalent right now the laws, more chinese vendors again and they're way more professional again and they're moving way faster than the vendors in the western thing.
Speaker 2So, especially on powder fusion, polymer metal, especially metal, actually they're really a couple years ago you just look at these parts you're like guys, you're kidding, this is not, this is the stuff you bring to the show. What's ending up in your recycling bin if this is what you bring here Now, the parts look really good. They're making additions and improvements to the machines that actually make sense for people using them. They're getting there. They're really getting there for people. I know more and more people now that are like they'll make something relatively simple, like a bike part or something, and they'll really be considering this. They'll really be considering Chinese machines, whereas after a couple of years ago nobody would actually literally people would just make fun of them. But they're moving so, so quickly and we're seeing just very interesting propositions Like, for example, axtra 3d is like an sla technology with dlp really fine lines, really really sharp edges, and then for materials for molding, you know, and that's really nice. And then they have a silicon from spectroplast as well, which also could be really interesting for for omp. Is that kind of stuff? The? The real champions of omp at the show.
Speaker 2Hp uh, they had a lot of really, really awesome uh stuff that they showcased. Uh, they got the point designs, hand, and then what I loved about hp is they showed the part with all the other parts, so they showed the actual hand, the final product and then the hp 3d prints were a part of that, but there was also other stuff, machine stuff and and also and I love that, I love that so much and it was actually literally my favorite booth. So so I really like that and they were really championing the technology and using a lot of really cool orthopedic stuff to showcase their abilities as a company. Let's say they had what else did they have algo, I don't know if you're familiar. That was like a prosthetic socket, really nice. It's like a hp kind of socket. Uh, they got kochi that one, the algorithm on that one, and then that looked really slick. By the way, that was like a PA-11 kind of thing with a TPU on the inside. It looked really slick. It didn't look particularly comfortable, by the way, compared to other stuff I've seen in BU, but it looked really nice. Then they had a Kokochi insole. That's again a 5200. They were using a high-reusability PA-12. Super cheap material to use at scale and stuff and they look really slick. They had point designs again, shoulder prosthesis thing. That looked really really nice as well. Really really nice.
Speaker 2Integrated part Really complex part A lot of stuff Blatchford wrist hand orthosis that's also interesting. They used the Estane T tpu and the pa12. A lot of people reason there's high reusability pa12. Um, I guess for the economics, uh, they've got a, uh, yeah, they've got a reactor spring afo and I just love you know, if there was like a lesson how to do stands for me, they always showed, they always told you if it was post-processed, what it was post-processed with.
Speaker 2You know what it was a dimension or somebody else. It was painted or something else. If there's other parts with it, what it was, the non-additive parts, I loved it, really really loved it. I think it's really great for the additive in or for the orthosis industry with omp, what they're really doing. And they showed some really really good, uh, yeah, really good stuff. Like a large part of the, the naked prosthetics had a hand, a body-powered hand thing Super nice as well, really really really good. They had to event medical, of course, this helmet, the kitty helmet thing They've been championing that for a really long time as well. And then partial orthoses and stuff like that for somebody else I don't remember, but they had this kind of meshy kind of the cool kids' meshy structure on the inside of it. So it was nice and just generally stuff was.
Speaker 1I do have a question, Sure go for it. On that side of things you mentioned and I think this is kind of curious. So you mentioned how focused everything was at Formnext and that CapEx was down. I mean hardware is hard right To sell and that sort of thing. What do you feel or what kind of sense are you getting from some of these OEMs that have hardware to sell but it seems like they're also selling some value add type of stuff?
Navigating Investment Decisions in 3D Printing
Speaker 2It depends. I mean, hardware is difficult because it's somebody who's betting a lot of their own money on it. It's not a bunch of kids showing up for Instagram, right, and then those kids make noise that attract more kids than everyone else on Instagram. It's different. You have to make an investment that is your money that you're going to give to someone else on a machine tool, and that machine tool may not work because these guys have been around for all of 18 months, right? So that's going to like and it's not going to scale like a hockey stick. So it's like, compared to other easier stuff, this is very different. So that's kind of the one thing I'd like to say there.
Speaker 2What we're seeing, on which I'm advising clients as well, is kind of accelerator type programs where they're saying what I tell clients to do, I can tell you this is. I tell them look, partner with a service bureau that has your machine, get some application engineers done and then take that buy candle or that IFO thing you have already and take it to a part where it's a real product and then go talk to all these people, right, and then get it implemented, right, and then tell them hey, you can order a hundred of these, no problem, you can then scale and do a thousand of them, so so fine. And then at one point we'll tell you hey, you know what, if you're doing ten thousand a month, then, okay, maybe you buy a machine, right, but only if it makes sense, and that's just a much better model, uh, than before. It was just the guy the set. The guy you would be in touch with was a box salesman. He wanted to sell you a box, and sometimes you sell your box if you don't needed it, or if it was too expensive for you, or if it was the wrong box, and that is just too slow and it's the wrong way to do it. And if you look at the solution cell, that has been going on in other industries. It's been happening for decades and it's a similar thing.
Speaker 2And I tell people, like the best decisions I've ever done and the best decisions I've ever done for clients is tell them no. Tell them no, this doesn't work for you. No, you can't work. No, 3d printing doesn't make sense for you, and and that's just so good for them, and and and that's because, well, I don't know, I have that kind of idea that I should do the right thing and also it just makes sense. I've gotten like a lot of people I said no to the project even and then they even gave me a lot more customers, sometimes just walked away. I never made money on them, but that's the right thing to do and I think we're growing up and you know saying that it's not about just getting any old revenue, it's about getting the revenue from the guy who's going to buy.
Speaker 2She's going to buy 100 machines for you, you know, and so that's kind of the thinking of the oem guys are slowly changing, with some companies not doing this. Astratus isn't doing this. They used to have a consultancy people and now they have they don't. But on the metal side you see a lot of application development going very deep and with eOS and partially as well now also SLM Velo was great at this, by the way.
Speaker 2So it doesn't always work right. It's not a cure-all, but we're seeing a lot of advanced stuff going on where these guys are really more solution-oriented and really saying oh, you want a part, that's fine, you just want one a month, that's totally okay, and I think that will really accelerate adoption. And then we're also seeing a little bit more products. I'd like to see a lot more, but a lot more people say buy a sieve from us now, buy a filter from us now, and I think that's just much better than trying to sell people a million dollar machine and asking to understand it so on that like, let's just tie that into the P and O side of things and prosthetic side of things, would you say that the right move is?
Speaker 1let's say, you have a practice and we'll just use these point for, for an example, and it's something that we're we take a look at the end of the year and we're like, okay, so what? What kind?
Speaker 1of investment do we have? What kind of volume do we have? Where are the dollars? Where are the dollars going out? Who are we paying? Right, no-transcript? And then it's like, okay, so if that can be 3D printed, can it be automated or do we need to bring another designer in? What do we need to do? But it's not. We need to just buy a machine because we've got this. It's like we have one device that we need to create and then we're going to outsource until we see what that volume looks like.
Speaker 1We get people used to it, and I think that is the other thing that's very interesting is, specifically, there's a lot of people that want to move into the pediatric AFO space. Well, there's been a company that's been around for 40 years that has the corner of fabrication for pediatric orthotic devices, and there's an expectation of the look because of the style that they've had. They're kind of like the iPhone of phones, right, everybody's trying to have that kind of look, functionality, and so just because you have a product that could be better, that could be cheaper, doesn't mean that somebody is going to hop on because it's 3D printed. It just looks different. And so there is this change that has to happen, almost evolution. That has to happen when you make that. So I mean, I think what you are saying is absolutely right Instead of investing in capital that is going to change, like this technology is changing, why not use the capacity that's readily available?
Speaker 2I think it's a good point I think everyone should buy. Buy a bamboo lab. Now you know what I mean if you talk about getting a printer. Get one. You can print lots of stuff. You can learn it. You can learn also how annoying a technology is, how seamless it is and, and you know, you started a 3d printing service.
Speaker 2I tried to talk you out of that for months, dude. I was like don't do it, don't do it. You're like no, no, but it really no, don't do it, don't do it. And you're like no, no, but it really no, don't do it. And it's a difficult way to make money. So you typically have too many people in the service business just like it or think it's cool. So there's always going to be some overcapacity somewhere, just like in restaurants. There's always too many restaurants because people think restaurants is the coolest thing in the world. And if you were just looking at a restaurant, um, uh, you know, uh. So so services are kind of like it's a difficult place to make money and, and I think for people to really have to, for an individual practitioner, it's like where do I play?
Speaker 2What am I? What are my strengths? Do I like to tinker? Is that a joy of my life that I like to tinker with wood or something or a carver. I love that. There's nothing. Okay, then go for it.
Speaker 2You know, if you want to spend time we talked about this before, I think if you're the client contact guy Mr Happy, and everybody loves you and oh God, you're so warm and you just love that moment with that patient you're just better at that moment you should maximize your time with the patient. You should try to figure out, like you know, how do I spend more time in front of people, or how do I spend more time in front of people, or how do I spend more time in front of the right people? That's the key thing for you, and then you should just outsource everything you can. In my opinion, if you're just that guy, there's just like the patient guy. But if you're the tinkerer, what part of this tinkering can empower you and what part can save costs? So I think that's just where do you play and where do you want to play and where are you able to play?
Speaker 2A lot of people want to. You know, do you, as a practice, invest half a million dollars in printers? I don't know If you're an inventing kind of guy point medical, those guys or whatever those guys that develop devices. I think the calculus is a lot different. But for an individual practice is like oh wait, no, are we going to make this our main gig? This is where we're going to put our money or would it be better for us to get a van? I mean, I still love what you guys do with the vans. I think that's amazing. You put the thing in the van, you go to the patient you know we don't really talk about that a lot because you think that's normal as them to get around.
Speaker 2We're trying to help them with that and we're making them come to us, right? I mean, I think for a lot of people, if they do have a half a million dollars, you know, lease a van, you know, or at least look at how that model works for you. And I think you know it's that kind of, especially if we're talking about like, I always see that people are much too likely to buy machines and much too likely to buy machines when there's no real need for them. So I just try to tell people not to, except for, you know, that little bamboo lab thing for like 800 bucks. That's a total thing. I would suggest you do um, because if you're listening this podcast, you should buy a bamboo, because that'll allow you to actually experience what this thing can do.
Speaker 1Yeah, well, speaking of Bamboo, it sounds like they had a pretty big presence at Formnext, right. So what are you seeing from them? I mean, I know there was a lot of drama with Chinese companies, but they seem to have a reasonable head on their shoulders, really focusing on I mean, we touched on it a little bit, you know, software side, not necessarily I mean the hardware is amazing, but like the experience side of things. So what do you? What do you see in there?
Speaker 2I talked to the ceo. I talked to the ceo and our european ceo, let's say, cedric as well, and I found the down-to-earthness Okay, he's a really bright guy. The CO dude is a really bright guy, but he's not arrogant. He doesn't show off. He doesn't want to be the smartest guy in the room. He'll try to learn from you whatever he can, whoever you are. He's super humble.
Speaker 2And this is a guy who left DJI. Dji is a giant company, went out of nowhere to dominate this drone market. Then he left with 200 guys to start a 3D printing company and they got a lot of money but still it was a big risk. It was like you know, they were like the gimbal team, internal 3D print team, prototyping, whatever team they could have just like sat back, not sat back. It's not a place to be home at 5 kind of thing, but you know what I mean. Right, you know it would have been safer and they went and did this and they knocked it out of the park. But he's just really down to earth and I think that was the real.
Speaker 2If you're competing against them, they will come for you. Seriously, there is a relentless ambition. There's also a relentless focus and that combination between relentless focus or candle power. First off, focus, drive right. Focus or candle power first off, focus, drive right. And and humility yeah, that's. That's a killer combo because, like, a lot of people will be really smart, they'll have a lot of ambition, but they'll be really arrogant. They think they're the smartest person in the room and that kind of makes them kind of dumb and this is not the case.
Speaker 2So these guys are legit and and um, and they're working on stuff. They understand they're working on stuff that to. They're working on stuff to grow their business and they did not expect this business thing. They literally were making a maker's you know, they were going to make a maker's printer that worked more like a microwave, what they say and then they all of a sudden had all these companies ordering them and saying, hey, I want my VAT or my sales tax back and stuff like this. And they're like, what Companies want this thing? They really. And so the last couple of years, there's no starting 2020. It must have been completely crazy for these guys, but anyway, so that's, I'm more convinced than ever that these guys are really going to, in a smart way, really take over a chunk of business from everybody.
Speaker 2So if we're looking for the OMP machine part of the market, we do have a. You know. We see that. You know having the right materials and certification on materials. I have that culmination with the printer that you can. You can make a skin safe certified thing and that's stuff that really will have a lot of value for a long time. All right and and.
Speaker 2But if we're talking about people that want to print in a mall and you want to do orthotics in a mall, you want to pop a cover on them. You know, I would do it a lot with the Bamboo Lab. It's a blazing fast, works really well system. It's not really optimized for production. It's got to have some improvement. But if they just don't do anything really stupid or revolutionary in the next one, just make it better. They have a really incredible device. So I think that's a. I know we talk about it on the wall. Maybe people are listening like why are these guys always wrong about this company? Are they getting like paid by these dudes? No, it's just the biggest thing that's happened since I've been here, since 2008, 2009. Because we actually have a 30 printer that works for most people and I see people buy hundreds of them and I see people buying in companies. They buy like one, they'll buy 10, they'll buy 20 more and then they'll still be cheaper than other solutions. Yeah.
Speaker 1And to your point on the bamboo stuff, they just work right.
Speaker 1So, like, if you're not a tinkerer which can take up so much time on some of these homemade devices or what have you and you're just looking like to validate your design.
Speaker 1So I definitely have changed my stance on like, and I think you have too. We've a little bit evolved in don't buy a printer to hey, this printer, when you press print it's going to give you what you want. Probably You'll be able to learn from it, and so I think what's neat. And now it's affordable. So now you can say yes, focus in on the design, some of the value stuff, application engineering, that sort of thing. And guess what, for $400 for an A1 or Black Friday special, $299 right now you now get to hold something that you can print and have it in a few hours, and I think there's just so much value to those two now combining where you're not wasting time because your filament jammed or something didn't stick to the bed or you know whatever it, what a big spaghetti nest or whatever you just it just prints, and I think that's neat and they weren't in the most expensive hotels.
Industry Shifts in Additive Manufacturing
Speaker 2Oh my god. They had to drive half an hour every day because they were just like they wanted a cheaper hotel. The stand was jam-packed. It wasn't crazy. They did a little dinner, but it was like the low-key stuff. I always look at the conference tables. They have these giant conference tables that are really expensive. I just know it's going to go south. If they're kind of frugal and they're conserving cash, then I really really believe in them. So that's good. We talked a little bit already. We had Shaden on and stuff. We talked about farm labs.
Speaker 2That 4L thing looks amazing. I hadn't seen it yet. It's a really big. It's huge. Is it really big? It is absolutely properly huge. It's like washing machine size, kind of approaching washing machine size printer thing. But I think that could be really exciting as well. I thought that was really good. We got an interesting development cobalts. We're seeing more cobalt. This is like smaller robots. So we had a lot of people make robot arms and and put an extruder on it. Now that could be an alternative for scoliosis brace. We talked about this at other things, but really cobalts could be a smaller, safer way to do that and that could be really fast. I looked at that as well. That was very good.
Speaker 2A lot of materials companies are withdrawing out of the market. So am ford was the formerly bsf materials is having a restructuring. They're going bankrupt, but that actually kind of is like a controlled restructuring thing, I think, where they probably have you know, I'm probably stuck to some deals or some things in particular they have to do so they're going to go bankrupt, slim down and hopefully come back stronger, which would be good for the market. I think I'm not. You know, I don't know who would buy them if they would be available, but if they were just kind of semi-healthy and a little bit slimmed down, that'd be good to have an alternative for certain materials, for powder, bed and and for certain residences. Okay, at kimia also kind of threw in the towel, that was kind of semi-expected as an armor group. The company behind it could afford to do this, but they just didn't see the future and that's not great because they were really good at compounding and making really specific materials. So that's one of the you know the lim and a volse of them are, you know, some of the people that could have come up with, like you know the ultimate spring material for orthosis or something like that. You know some of the people that could have come up with, like you know, the ultimate spring material for for authorities or something like that, you know. So that's not good for us, for this group of people.
Speaker 2Exa3d is either running low on cash again, which is known people are talking about that it would stop or go bankrupt. That may not be the case. It's definitely for sale. So that's not good for any kind of exa3d print kind of thing. Bella's struggling still, but we knew that already. We don't know what that's going to happen there.
Speaker 2So there are a lot of, like you know, sad news, kind of exit kind of things. There's a bunch of layoffs as well, as stratasys and some other companies have done some layoffs as well. So there's a lot. On the other hand, if you're listening to this and you're, you're a practice or you're a kind of hanger or whatever and you wanted to get into additive, you want to expand your additive operation, now's the time. There are a lot of people that would never ever be looking for a job that are looking for a job now. Guys have been doing VA analysis on end-use parts and material extrusion for like a decade or more, guys have been doing energy return on data structures and really specific talented guys, and also not the youngest kids that just get them out first, but now some super experienced people that are available and that that's going to be really good for us.
Speaker 2I think um are good for the rest of the industry. It's really good for people that even a chain of practice or somebody who wants, like a 3d printing person now to develop a product or to you know, come up with some kind of linear technology or some of that now now's our chance. But if the industry as a whole, that's just a little bit kind of slimming down. We see a lot of the companies that are slimming down and are stopping are just not doing very well as well. So, of course, if you haven't achieved the critical mass or you've taken a massive investment and you clearly it's not going to be paying off anyway, throwing in the towel might be the best thing. So there's a lot of hype leaving the market, but there's a lot of actually people making real money in this market as well, real money in this business, and that's the difference. It's become more and more normal, but also, at the same time it's become more kind of dependable, boring, but boring in a good way, you know.
Speaker 1Yeah, Well, and I do have a question.
Speaker 1So I know there was a little bit of the drama around and I just want to keep it at an intellectual property sort of thing, and I thought you wrote a great article about that and I think the bottom line with your article and if you want to speak to it a little bit more is if there is a company out there that is going to steal intellectual property and sell it, you really need to step back if you're thinking like, oh man, that's a good deal on a software or a contract manufacturer, whatever, and be like, okay, so they've done this to try to get ahead. What are they going to do with my stuff?
Speaker 1So like so I think what was the saying that you said we're, we're, we're really selling on trust. Yeah, we're selling trust.
Speaker 2So we sell trust. So we sell trust as a business. So the more bill of trust additive, the more ability to use additive and the quicker people use additive, quicker that gives money, essentially, and the quicker we'll grow. And if you do, you breed mistrust. You're doing us all a disservice. And we saw this is like the voxel dances in the company. This is actually. It's. It's really stupid really, if you about it.
Speaker 2They are kind of like the Chinese super app of 3D printing. It's kind of like an anthropology. Meets a lot of the stuff in Materialize, meets a lot of the stuff Autodesk does in one company. Like the Chinese do right, they just do like we'll do everything right and that, you know, in the case of WeChat and stuff like that, that is like an amazing juggernaut. So like an amazing juggernaut. So hey, why not try it for something else? And imagine having one software package for all your additive stuff, including a lot of like FEA kind of analysis stuff. Right, that's what a lot of people want, right? That's why Fusion's so popular. You don't have to drag and drop stuff into all sorts of different stuff. I'll wait till everything loads for half your life, you know. So you know there's a lot of logic there.
Speaker 2But the moment you start cutting corners on something that's meant to design rockets, and and and orthopedic implants, you know that that to me is like come on, we're not in that stage anymore. We're not a bunch of kids anymore. This isn't a slicer for an fdm printer or something you're trying to do, something that is like gonna get you a grade two, grade two, three, medical device, I mean. And if you cut corners in stealing your stuff to power your software, you know how are you going to like deal with my patient confidentiality or something. If I upload the files to the cloud and you tell me that it's all secure, yeah, how good of a job are you going to do for that?
Speaker 2Because you know what I mean. Because two things like a you stole ip. B you got found out, which is even like you. We're talking about things like a geometry, kernel and and UI elements, right, so it's either stuff that no one should have ever found out about it or stuff that is really obvious and everyone looking at that will say, oh, that's exactly the same thing that the other guys are doing. You know what I mean. So I'm like are you really the guys that are going to make my airplane safer, and that's my problem with that.
Speaker 1I think with the form, next stuff. I think it's interesting that, how you said, it's kind of maturing. The people are laser focused on specific applications and I think that we're seeing that a lot in the orthotic prosthetic space. I think that there's still a lot of people that say, hey, brent, what machine should I buy? But they don't know how to design and I think it's just a matter of education side of things, of like.
Speaker 1Hey, I think the human capital side of things is definitely undervalued and I'm glad that you brought up the layoffs and such, because I 100% agree that there's some pretty massive opportunities for some people that had some niche abilities or that have niche abilities that you can bring in and and create some differentiation there.
Speaker 1So I think that's that's also something that is is really great and and and just know that this is probably going to be while people may love doing the prosthetic and orthotics side of things, the money isn't the same as building rockets or what have you, but you are making a difference in somebody's life and this, this could be a great stepping stone. I mean, some of these people are super, super smart and they can do. You know what it would take you two years, they could do in about three, four months. So even if they stayed with you for a year, it's still a great investment Obviously your intellectual property, that sort of thing so I think that's an interesting part. People love additive manufacturing and they want to try to still keep their hand on the pulse of some of that instead of rather go do something else and so you know, if it's an opportunity, I think that's a. It's a great way to go.
Speaker 2All right. Thank you for listening to another episode of the prosthetics and orthotics podcast.
Speaker 1And that's it for this episode of the prosthetics and orthotics podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends and leave us a review. It would mean the world to us and until next time. We'll see you on the next episode.
